So far I’ve discussed the Scriptures which are the foundation for our theology (or at least is should be).  We looked at the nature, character, and attributes of God.  I have posted on Jesus Christ, his nature, life and work.  Last week I posted on the Holy Spirit’s nature and work in the world and in the lives of believers., and also discussed sign gifts which sparked some great discussion.

I want to take a look at us.  What does the Scripture have to say about you and me?  I believe our view of ourselves will affect how we approach the Bible, how we approach God, and our view of salvation.  Plainly put…. do we have an elevated view of ourselves and our nature or do we recognize where we actually stand before God?  You can basically boil humanity down into two groups (there are subgroups of course) – one group has an elevated view of man, and low view of God, and the opposite group has a low view of man and high view of God.

The low view of man and high view of God, I believe is what is taught in Scriptures.  It is recognizing the greatness of God and realizing in light of His greatness and His holiness that we are nothing.  Isaiah realized this when he saw the LORD in a vision.

In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.  Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.  And one called to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!”

And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.  And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” (Isaiah 6:1-5, ESV, emphasis mine)

Jesus said himself that apart from God we can do nothing, (John 15:5).  So for those reasons and many others that is why I take a low view of myself and mankind and a high view of God.  This is also the position that the Evangelical Free Church of America (as well as any evangelical church/denomination).

We believe that man was created in the image of God but fell into sin and is, therefore, lost, and only through regeneration by the Holy Spirit can salvation and spiritual life be obtained, (Article V, 1950 EFCA Statement of Faith).

While I hold a low view of man that doesn’t mean that we are completely without value.  We were not created this way.  We were created in the image of God, in His likeness, a spiritual being that is eternal.  We were created to have an intimate fellowship with God and to commune with Him.  He commissioned us to fill the earth, subdue it, and to be stewards of the earth.  It says in scripture:

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”  And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.   And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so, (Genesis 1:26-30, ESV).

Adam and Eve were created in a perfect environment, and enjoyed God’s presence in a state of untested morality.  Eve was then deceived by the serpent and partook of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God had forbid them to do, (Genesis 2:16).  Adam then willingly sinned against the only commandment that God had given them, (Genesis 3:1-6; 1 Timothy 2:14).  Man then fell, breaking his fellowship and communion with God, bringing a penalty of sin and death to all generations and a curse to the world around him, (Genesis 3:7-19).  This sin nature has been passed to every human being since Adam, (Romans 5:12), with the exception of the second Adam, Jesus Christ.  Mankind is born alienated from God, (Romans 5:19).

Man from then on has been in spiritual darkness, (Ephesians 2:2; 5:8), in ignorance, (1 Peter 1:14), blind, (2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 4:18) and lawless, (1 John 3:4).  Everyone one in history has sinned, (Romans 3:23) and deserves death, which is eternal separation from God, (Romans 6:23).  Any good that mankind can do is only by virtue of being created in the image of God, but even then our good works are considered as nothing but dirty rags before God, (Isaiah 64:6).

Mankind cannot restore fellowship with God the Father on their own, (Genesis 3:8; Romans 3:10-20; Ephesians 2:1-5).  God, being rich in mercy and grace, has given us His Word, His Son and His Spirit; for we are lost and without hope outside the grace of God, (John 1:12-13).  In order for restored fellowship with God the Father, our hearts must be changed supernaturally, (Deuteronomy 29:4; Jeremiah 31:33; John 3:5).  The Holy Spirit enters man when he exercises faith and trust in Christ, (Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23).  Then the believer has the power of the Holy Spirit to have victory from sin, (John 7:37-39; Romans 6:4-13).

Next we’ll look at the salvation that God offers us through Jesus Christ.

15 comments
  1. “Mankind is born alienated from God” (Steve)

    I don’t believe that…I think we have to choose like Adam and Eve did…to disobey and move away from God. If humanity is born alienated from God – what of kids that die? Do they have no hope for heaven because they are ‘born this way’? That sentence is way too generic in my opinion.

    “deserves death, which is eternal separation from God” (Steve)

    I checked your back-up scripture for this – Romans 6:23 – and it says nothing like this.

    “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

    The sentence only mentions the curse on Adam – which was a physical death. We all physically die – we know this. The point of Paul’s writing here seems to be that we can have a ‘longer life’ if we follow the teachings of Jesus – unto eternal life. That being said, we still face death but we have the opportunity for ‘eternal life’. Maybe we can infer eternal separation into the talks – since we die and then we are gone for good I guess.

    Also what is the human role in this faith exactly? Apparently no matter what we do it is because of God and only God…and we are only good for our separation from God. All we seem to be able to do is mess things up and nothing else. If we are to have salvation – that is because of everything Jesus did…if we are to be followers – that’s the holy spirit, etc. This view, in and of itself, lends itself quite easily to the view of universal salvation…in my opinion.

    If you think about it – you remove the human role that much – then God did everything that needs to be done and there is nothing we can do to change any of that…isn’t that the same premise of universal salvation? Except you manage to throw in ‘choice’ – humans can mess that up and they are to blame for lack of the ‘eternal gift’. Basically the only thing a human can do is ruin God’s plans…is this accurate?

    SocietyVss last blog post..A Helper Who Is Against Him – Eve Dialogue

  2. “Mankind is born alienated from God” (Steve)

    I don’t believe that…I think we have to choose like Adam and Eve did…to disobey and move away from God. If humanity is born alienated from God – what of kids that die? Do they have no hope for heaven because they are ‘born this way’? That sentence is way too generic in my opinion.

    “deserves death, which is eternal separation from God” (Steve)

    I checked your back-up scripture for this – Romans 6:23 – and it says nothing like this.

    “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

    The sentence only mentions the curse on Adam – which was a physical death. We all physically die – we know this. The point of Paul’s writing here seems to be that we can have a ‘longer life’ if we follow the teachings of Jesus – unto eternal life. That being said, we still face death but we have the opportunity for ‘eternal life’. Maybe we can infer eternal separation into the talks – since we die and then we are gone for good I guess.

    Also what is the human role in this faith exactly? Apparently no matter what we do it is because of God and only God…and we are only good for our separation from God. All we seem to be able to do is mess things up and nothing else. If we are to have salvation – that is because of everything Jesus did…if we are to be followers – that’s the holy spirit, etc. This view, in and of itself, lends itself quite easily to the view of universal salvation…in my opinion.

    If you think about it – you remove the human role that much – then God did everything that needs to be done and there is nothing we can do to change any of that…isn’t that the same premise of universal salvation? Except you manage to throw in ‘choice’ – humans can mess that up and they are to blame for lack of the ‘eternal gift’. Basically the only thing a human can do is ruin God’s plans…is this accurate?

    SocietyVss last blog post..A Helper Who Is Against Him – Eve Dialogue

  3. “Mankind is born alienated from God” (Steve)

    I don’t believe that…I think we have to choose like Adam and Eve did…to disobey and move away from God. If humanity is born alienated from God – what of kids that die? Do they have no hope for heaven because they are ‘born this way’? That sentence is way too generic in my opinion.

    “deserves death, which is eternal separation from God” (Steve)

    I checked your back-up scripture for this – Romans 6:23 – and it says nothing like this.

    “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

    The sentence only mentions the curse on Adam – which was a physical death. We all physically die – we know this. The point of Paul’s writing here seems to be that we can have a ‘longer life’ if we follow the teachings of Jesus – unto eternal life. That being said, we still face death but we have the opportunity for ‘eternal life’. Maybe we can infer eternal separation into the talks – since we die and then we are gone for good I guess.

    Also what is the human role in this faith exactly? Apparently no matter what we do it is because of God and only God…and we are only good for our separation from God. All we seem to be able to do is mess things up and nothing else. If we are to have salvation – that is because of everything Jesus did…if we are to be followers – that’s the holy spirit, etc. This view, in and of itself, lends itself quite easily to the view of universal salvation…in my opinion.

    If you think about it – you remove the human role that much – then God did everything that needs to be done and there is nothing we can do to change any of that…isn’t that the same premise of universal salvation? Except you manage to throw in ‘choice’ – humans can mess that up and they are to blame for lack of the ‘eternal gift’. Basically the only thing a human can do is ruin God’s plans…is this accurate?

    SocietyVss last blog post..A Helper Who Is Against Him – Eve Dialogue

  4. Society… it’s Shane, not Steve.

    We were born under the curse of sin. God is a good and just God, and He will deal with children in a way that he sees fit. I can’t point to a particular passage, other than to point to Jesus that welcomes children, warns us not to hinder children from coming to him, and says that we are to have faith like a child. But you can see sin nature in children, maybe you don’t have kids yet, but I tell you what… I didn’t have to teach them to disobey. They did it of their own accord. I do have to teach them to obey, and that doesn’t come naturally.

    Romans 6:23 – the wages, what we earn, from sin is death. In the context of the passage – life is eternal, and therefore death is eternal. Hell is seperation from God.

    Isaiah 59:2 says, “(our) iniquities have made a seperation between you and God.” Jesus also refers to the Rich Man and Lazarus… (not sure where that passage is off the top of my head). Matthew 7, Jesus talks about destruction… Matthew 25, and several places throughout the Gospels Jesus refers to or alludes to hell and judgment. Revelation 20 is where we see the final judgment.

    Regarding faith, the Bible says in John 6 that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him, and the Holy Spirit’s role is to draw people to Jesus and to convict of sin, as well as regenerate sinners. So salvation is entirely a work of God (I’ll get into that next time, don’t want to debate that here.).

    Ephesians 2, I think is pretty clear on what role we can play without the Spirit. We are dead in our sins and trespasses. Have you seen any dead people make any good decisions lately? I haven’t.

    So regarding universal salvation that is saying that because Jesus died ALL are saved, but that is what the doctrine of man’s depravity teaches. It teaches that apart from Christ’s work on the cross and the Holy Spirit’s work there is nothing we can do.

    Tell you what, let’s table the salvation argument until the next post which will be on salvation. You ask some good questions, and I think perhaps I might answer some of them with that post. Is that fair?

  5. Society… it’s Shane, not Steve.

    We were born under the curse of sin. God is a good and just God, and He will deal with children in a way that he sees fit. I can’t point to a particular passage, other than to point to Jesus that welcomes children, warns us not to hinder children from coming to him, and says that we are to have faith like a child. But you can see sin nature in children, maybe you don’t have kids yet, but I tell you what… I didn’t have to teach them to disobey. They did it of their own accord. I do have to teach them to obey, and that doesn’t come naturally.

    Romans 6:23 – the wages, what we earn, from sin is death. In the context of the passage – life is eternal, and therefore death is eternal. Hell is seperation from God.

    Isaiah 59:2 says, “(our) iniquities have made a seperation between you and God.” Jesus also refers to the Rich Man and Lazarus… (not sure where that passage is off the top of my head). Matthew 7, Jesus talks about destruction… Matthew 25, and several places throughout the Gospels Jesus refers to or alludes to hell and judgment. Revelation 20 is where we see the final judgment.

    Regarding faith, the Bible says in John 6 that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him, and the Holy Spirit’s role is to draw people to Jesus and to convict of sin, as well as regenerate sinners. So salvation is entirely a work of God (I’ll get into that next time, don’t want to debate that here.).

    Ephesians 2, I think is pretty clear on what role we can play without the Spirit. We are dead in our sins and trespasses. Have you seen any dead people make any good decisions lately? I haven’t.

    So regarding universal salvation that is saying that because Jesus died ALL are saved, but that is what the doctrine of man’s depravity teaches. It teaches that apart from Christ’s work on the cross and the Holy Spirit’s work there is nothing we can do.

    Tell you what, let’s table the salvation argument until the next post which will be on salvation. You ask some good questions, and I think perhaps I might answer some of them with that post. Is that fair?

  6. Society… it’s Shane, not Steve.

    We were born under the curse of sin. God is a good and just God, and He will deal with children in a way that he sees fit. I can’t point to a particular passage, other than to point to Jesus that welcomes children, warns us not to hinder children from coming to him, and says that we are to have faith like a child. But you can see sin nature in children, maybe you don’t have kids yet, but I tell you what… I didn’t have to teach them to disobey. They did it of their own accord. I do have to teach them to obey, and that doesn’t come naturally.

    Romans 6:23 – the wages, what we earn, from sin is death. In the context of the passage – life is eternal, and therefore death is eternal. Hell is seperation from God.

    Isaiah 59:2 says, “(our) iniquities have made a seperation between you and God.” Jesus also refers to the Rich Man and Lazarus… (not sure where that passage is off the top of my head). Matthew 7, Jesus talks about destruction… Matthew 25, and several places throughout the Gospels Jesus refers to or alludes to hell and judgment. Revelation 20 is where we see the final judgment.

    Regarding faith, the Bible says in John 6 that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him, and the Holy Spirit’s role is to draw people to Jesus and to convict of sin, as well as regenerate sinners. So salvation is entirely a work of God (I’ll get into that next time, don’t want to debate that here.).

    Ephesians 2, I think is pretty clear on what role we can play without the Spirit. We are dead in our sins and trespasses. Have you seen any dead people make any good decisions lately? I haven’t.

    So regarding universal salvation that is saying that because Jesus died ALL are saved, but that is what the doctrine of man’s depravity teaches. It teaches that apart from Christ’s work on the cross and the Holy Spirit’s work there is nothing we can do.

    Tell you what, let’s table the salvation argument until the next post which will be on salvation. You ask some good questions, and I think perhaps I might answer some of them with that post. Is that fair?

  7. Sorry Shane, I was thinking ‘s’ as Steve and I had a huge misnomer..sorry.

    “But you can see sin nature in children, maybe you don’t have kids yet, but I tell you what… I didn’t have to teach them to disobey” (Shane)

    So all those children going to hell…thanks to abortions. I see why you are against it – if I knew this inside info I would fight tooth and nail. Hell is a warm place for children.

    “the wages, what we earn, from sin is death. In the context of the passage – life is eternal, and therefore death is eternal. Hell is separation from God. (Shane)

    No. Shane that is jump in logic…is not Paul talking about an Adam? Adam dies – we all die – this is obvious as we know. Paul is addressing eternal life – and it does mean that passage addresses life as some minutia – life in general before we die. I mean, it’s all physical. It’s obvious from the passage.

    “We are dead in our sins and trespasses. Have you seen any dead people make any good decisions lately? I haven’t.” (Shane)

    How dead were you? You couldn’t move or breathe? Did you know any semblance of good/bad before you became a Christian? You know you are a liar.

    Of we were dead in our sins then where is death? I am still breathing.

    “It teaches that apart from Christ’s work on the cross and the Holy Spirit’s work there is nothing we can do.” (Shane)

    Not true – it amplifies it work.

    SocietyVss last blog post..A Helper Who Is Against Him – Eve Dialogue

  8. Sorry Shane, I was thinking ‘s’ as Steve and I had a huge misnomer..sorry.

    “But you can see sin nature in children, maybe you don’t have kids yet, but I tell you what… I didn’t have to teach them to disobey” (Shane)

    So all those children going to hell…thanks to abortions. I see why you are against it – if I knew this inside info I would fight tooth and nail. Hell is a warm place for children.

    “the wages, what we earn, from sin is death. In the context of the passage – life is eternal, and therefore death is eternal. Hell is separation from God. (Shane)

    No. Shane that is jump in logic…is not Paul talking about an Adam? Adam dies – we all die – this is obvious as we know. Paul is addressing eternal life – and it does mean that passage addresses life as some minutia – life in general before we die. I mean, it’s all physical. It’s obvious from the passage.

    “We are dead in our sins and trespasses. Have you seen any dead people make any good decisions lately? I haven’t.” (Shane)

    How dead were you? You couldn’t move or breathe? Did you know any semblance of good/bad before you became a Christian? You know you are a liar.

    Of we were dead in our sins then where is death? I am still breathing.

    “It teaches that apart from Christ’s work on the cross and the Holy Spirit’s work there is nothing we can do.” (Shane)

    Not true – it amplifies it work.

    SocietyVss last blog post..A Helper Who Is Against Him – Eve Dialogue

  9. Sorry Shane, I was thinking ‘s’ as Steve and I had a huge misnomer..sorry.

    “But you can see sin nature in children, maybe you don’t have kids yet, but I tell you what… I didn’t have to teach them to disobey” (Shane)

    So all those children going to hell…thanks to abortions. I see why you are against it – if I knew this inside info I would fight tooth and nail. Hell is a warm place for children.

    “the wages, what we earn, from sin is death. In the context of the passage – life is eternal, and therefore death is eternal. Hell is separation from God. (Shane)

    No. Shane that is jump in logic…is not Paul talking about an Adam? Adam dies – we all die – this is obvious as we know. Paul is addressing eternal life – and it does mean that passage addresses life as some minutia – life in general before we die. I mean, it’s all physical. It’s obvious from the passage.

    “We are dead in our sins and trespasses. Have you seen any dead people make any good decisions lately? I haven’t.” (Shane)

    How dead were you? You couldn’t move or breathe? Did you know any semblance of good/bad before you became a Christian? You know you are a liar.

    Of we were dead in our sins then where is death? I am still breathing.

    “It teaches that apart from Christ’s work on the cross and the Holy Spirit’s work there is nothing we can do.” (Shane)

    Not true – it amplifies it work.

    SocietyVss last blog post..A Helper Who Is Against Him – Eve Dialogue

  10. No I don’t believe that children aborted or small children who die are going to hell. I entrust them to a kind, merciful and loving God for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

    I do believe there is a point in time in a child’s life where they have understanding and are then accountable for their actions. I’m sure it’s different with each kid.

    My point was that you can see sin nature present in kids.

    With Romans 6:23 – looking at the context and previous chapters and then also what the Bible has to say about eternity is where I draw my interpretation. I never take a major theological position just based on one verse.

    Regarding our being dead, I was being snarky. I was speaking metaphorically. Ephesians 2 is speaking to our spiritual condition not our physical condition.

    Mankind does have the ability to do some good. I believe that is large part to His common grace, but also that we are created in His image. Any good that we do is like filthy rags before God though, (Isaiah 64:6). The Bible describes us before Christ as slaves to sin, children of wrath, blinded by darkness, etc. If that is the case, how then could we even desire God and to know Him without God’s activity in our life?

  11. No I don’t believe that children aborted or small children who die are going to hell. I entrust them to a kind, merciful and loving God for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

    I do believe there is a point in time in a child’s life where they have understanding and are then accountable for their actions. I’m sure it’s different with each kid.

    My point was that you can see sin nature present in kids.

    With Romans 6:23 – looking at the context and previous chapters and then also what the Bible has to say about eternity is where I draw my interpretation. I never take a major theological position just based on one verse.

    Regarding our being dead, I was being snarky. I was speaking metaphorically. Ephesians 2 is speaking to our spiritual condition not our physical condition.

    Mankind does have the ability to do some good. I believe that is large part to His common grace, but also that we are created in His image. Any good that we do is like filthy rags before God though, (Isaiah 64:6). The Bible describes us before Christ as slaves to sin, children of wrath, blinded by darkness, etc. If that is the case, how then could we even desire God and to know Him without God’s activity in our life?

  12. No I don’t believe that children aborted or small children who die are going to hell. I entrust them to a kind, merciful and loving God for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

    I do believe there is a point in time in a child’s life where they have understanding and are then accountable for their actions. I’m sure it’s different with each kid.

    My point was that you can see sin nature present in kids.

    With Romans 6:23 – looking at the context and previous chapters and then also what the Bible has to say about eternity is where I draw my interpretation. I never take a major theological position just based on one verse.

    Regarding our being dead, I was being snarky. I was speaking metaphorically. Ephesians 2 is speaking to our spiritual condition not our physical condition.

    Mankind does have the ability to do some good. I believe that is large part to His common grace, but also that we are created in His image. Any good that we do is like filthy rags before God though, (Isaiah 64:6). The Bible describes us before Christ as slaves to sin, children of wrath, blinded by darkness, etc. If that is the case, how then could we even desire God and to know Him without God’s activity in our life?

  13. “I don’t believe that children aborted or small children who die are going to hell. I entrust them to a kind, merciful and loving God for the reasons I mentioned in my last post” (Shane)

    Then we are not born sinful? It seems you make an exception for children when we are dealing with the doctrine of man’s depravity – children get a free pass irregardless of the condition they are born into…they get the mercy of God. Meanwhile, all adults have a choice to make – because of their sinful condition that separates them from God (which for some reason does not include children). This seems like an inconsistent position on human depravity. Maybe I am reading you wrong?

    “My point was that you can see sin nature present in kids” (Shane)

    I agree – you point is valid here – kids can easily disobey once they know the rules. But are they not just like Adam in that regards and basically just need direction? I am willing to concede that this condition in the human being (and even as a child) is what we would call the ‘sin condition’ – but I think sin is a choice.

    “The Bible describes us before Christ as slaves to sin, children of wrath, blinded by darkness, etc. If that is the case, how then could we even desire God and to know Him without God’s activity in our life?” (Shane)

    So God is in the business of deciding who gets in and who does not? I find this a tad strange on some level. We can only know God if God allows it more or less. This would mean God is picking and choosing who gets into eternity and who does not – we basically have no role in this. This also means God is kinda cruel – since He could let all in but He is making it so some are evil and some are good (since this is all dependant on God’s leading and not our choice).

    I wonder about that position – since it counts us out and that’s not a good thing. This means God is to blame for everything bad that happens – not just the good (maybe this is so – I actually do not know). God could stop all the evil if this is how He works in humanity’s lives – He is leading everybody in some sense and enlightens those whom He will (screw those whom He chooses to damn – who also ruin the lives of the people God enlightens). That’s a kinda screwy plan I think.

    I am not saying God does not lead us to Himself – I actually think this is very well the case. However, I think God allows us choice for a reason – so we want to serve God with who we are. My view of God works like this – we are led to the water – we still have the choice to drink it. I think out ability to choose glorifies God if we use it to do that.

    My view of humanity is not really a ‘low view’ – but a more ‘medium view’. I think we play our part in the roles of doing good or doing bad – in serving God or serving our own desires, etc. We are endued with responsibility for our sin condition – and we are solely responsible for our actions – and we can choose to repent or we can choose to continue hurting others. Jesus paves a way for us to deal with our sin condition – but this is done because of God’s love for us (meaning we are very important to God). I see humanity as integral to God – so much so – we are in every story in the bible concerning God.

    SocietyVss last blog post..Westboro – Responsibility & Shout Let it all Out

  14. “I don’t believe that children aborted or small children who die are going to hell. I entrust them to a kind, merciful and loving God for the reasons I mentioned in my last post” (Shane)

    Then we are not born sinful? It seems you make an exception for children when we are dealing with the doctrine of man’s depravity – children get a free pass irregardless of the condition they are born into…they get the mercy of God. Meanwhile, all adults have a choice to make – because of their sinful condition that separates them from God (which for some reason does not include children). This seems like an inconsistent position on human depravity. Maybe I am reading you wrong?

    “My point was that you can see sin nature present in kids” (Shane)

    I agree – you point is valid here – kids can easily disobey once they know the rules. But are they not just like Adam in that regards and basically just need direction? I am willing to concede that this condition in the human being (and even as a child) is what we would call the ‘sin condition’ – but I think sin is a choice.

    “The Bible describes us before Christ as slaves to sin, children of wrath, blinded by darkness, etc. If that is the case, how then could we even desire God and to know Him without God’s activity in our life?” (Shane)

    So God is in the business of deciding who gets in and who does not? I find this a tad strange on some level. We can only know God if God allows it more or less. This would mean God is picking and choosing who gets into eternity and who does not – we basically have no role in this. This also means God is kinda cruel – since He could let all in but He is making it so some are evil and some are good (since this is all dependant on God’s leading and not our choice).

    I wonder about that position – since it counts us out and that’s not a good thing. This means God is to blame for everything bad that happens – not just the good (maybe this is so – I actually do not know). God could stop all the evil if this is how He works in humanity’s lives – He is leading everybody in some sense and enlightens those whom He will (screw those whom He chooses to damn – who also ruin the lives of the people God enlightens). That’s a kinda screwy plan I think.

    I am not saying God does not lead us to Himself – I actually think this is very well the case. However, I think God allows us choice for a reason – so we want to serve God with who we are. My view of God works like this – we are led to the water – we still have the choice to drink it. I think out ability to choose glorifies God if we use it to do that.

    My view of humanity is not really a ‘low view’ – but a more ‘medium view’. I think we play our part in the roles of doing good or doing bad – in serving God or serving our own desires, etc. We are endued with responsibility for our sin condition – and we are solely responsible for our actions – and we can choose to repent or we can choose to continue hurting others. Jesus paves a way for us to deal with our sin condition – but this is done because of God’s love for us (meaning we are very important to God). I see humanity as integral to God – so much so – we are in every story in the bible concerning God.

    SocietyVss last blog post..Westboro – Responsibility & Shout Let it all Out

  15. “I don’t believe that children aborted or small children who die are going to hell. I entrust them to a kind, merciful and loving God for the reasons I mentioned in my last post” (Shane)

    Then we are not born sinful? It seems you make an exception for children when we are dealing with the doctrine of man’s depravity – children get a free pass irregardless of the condition they are born into…they get the mercy of God. Meanwhile, all adults have a choice to make – because of their sinful condition that separates them from God (which for some reason does not include children). This seems like an inconsistent position on human depravity. Maybe I am reading you wrong?

    “My point was that you can see sin nature present in kids” (Shane)

    I agree – you point is valid here – kids can easily disobey once they know the rules. But are they not just like Adam in that regards and basically just need direction? I am willing to concede that this condition in the human being (and even as a child) is what we would call the ‘sin condition’ – but I think sin is a choice.

    “The Bible describes us before Christ as slaves to sin, children of wrath, blinded by darkness, etc. If that is the case, how then could we even desire God and to know Him without God’s activity in our life?” (Shane)

    So God is in the business of deciding who gets in and who does not? I find this a tad strange on some level. We can only know God if God allows it more or less. This would mean God is picking and choosing who gets into eternity and who does not – we basically have no role in this. This also means God is kinda cruel – since He could let all in but He is making it so some are evil and some are good (since this is all dependant on God’s leading and not our choice).

    I wonder about that position – since it counts us out and that’s not a good thing. This means God is to blame for everything bad that happens – not just the good (maybe this is so – I actually do not know). God could stop all the evil if this is how He works in humanity’s lives – He is leading everybody in some sense and enlightens those whom He will (screw those whom He chooses to damn – who also ruin the lives of the people God enlightens). That’s a kinda screwy plan I think.

    I am not saying God does not lead us to Himself – I actually think this is very well the case. However, I think God allows us choice for a reason – so we want to serve God with who we are. My view of God works like this – we are led to the water – we still have the choice to drink it. I think out ability to choose glorifies God if we use it to do that.

    My view of humanity is not really a ‘low view’ – but a more ‘medium view’. I think we play our part in the roles of doing good or doing bad – in serving God or serving our own desires, etc. We are endued with responsibility for our sin condition – and we are solely responsible for our actions – and we can choose to repent or we can choose to continue hurting others. Jesus paves a way for us to deal with our sin condition – but this is done because of God’s love for us (meaning we are very important to God). I see humanity as integral to God – so much so – we are in every story in the bible concerning God.

    SocietyVss last blog post..Westboro – Responsibility & Shout Let it all Out

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