Just to clarify the position I expressed in my other posts, I do not think it is a good idea for a minister of the gospel to burn Qurans. Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Center should go to where Muslims are and preach the free grace and forgiveness of God gained by Jesus Christ on the Cross and offered in the Free Gospel.

But not all book burning is bad.   I would much rather, however, see ex-Muslims burn their own Korans just as I’d rather have Latter Day Saints burn their own books of Mormon:

Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

My other reason for diving headlong into this issue is not to defend Jones, but ask for some perspective.  What Jones threatened to do to commemorate 9/11 is far less abhorrent than professing Christian ministers offering to read from the Koran in their pulpits or joining with Mormon Glenn Beck and Islamic Imams as if Christians had anything spiritually in common with them. We don’t. Let’s not water down the gospel while throwing water on Pastor Jones’s bonfire.

11 comments
  1. David, I will be happy to oblige you by burning my copy of the Book of Mormon. As a devout Mormon, I certify that I am an acceptable book-burner.

    I’ll even do a slow burn, one page at a time, first reading the page aloud, then burning it. I’ll videotape the whole event for you!

    I’m not a very fast reader, so our little book-burning should provide you with many hours of enjoyment!

    I’ll even let you choose which pages I should burn first. Kindly select from the following:

    ” . . . as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.” (2 Nephi 25:20)
    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/25/19-20#19

    “And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.” (2 Nephi 26:12)
    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/26/12#12

    “I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.” (2 Nephi 33:6)
    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/33/4,6#4

    “Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.” (3 Nephi 9:15)
    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/9/15#15

    “Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.” (3 Nephi 11:14)
    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/11/14#14

    If none of these are sufficiently offensive, I can provide you with a selection of literally thousands of similar passages!

    Sincerely,

    Tracy Hall Jr
    hthalljr’gmail’com

    1. Thanks for your contribution.

      Anybody who has read the Book of Mormon knows that many portions have been either copied word-for-word from the King James Version of the Bible or borrowed from the vernacular of the Middle English.

      As per usual, as a Mormon, you fundamentally try to deceive people by portraying your doctrine as the same as orthodox Christianity. You did not tell my caffeinated friends that Mormons believe God has a wife, a goddess the Bible knows nothing of. You did not tell us that he has a body, which the Bible denies and Mormons affirm. You did not tell us that according to the LDS, God is of the same essence as us, and only became God later by obeying some other god, which again the Bible never mentions.

      Why do Mormons now claim to be just plain ‘ole Christians, when for 150 years they told us that Joseph Smith got the vision every one of the rest of us were apostates and that no church preached the gospel anymore?

      1. (Part 2 of 3)

        >You did not tell my caffeinated friends that Mormons believe God has a wife, a goddess the Bible knows nothing of.

        Actually, the Book of Mormon, which is the book under discussion, is no more specific than the Bible on this subject. Both books give many clues for this truth, and neither denies it. But in revelations God has given since the Book of Mormon was published, this wonderful truth has unfolded in such clarity that a living apostle of Christ recently declared, “Our theology begins with heavenly parents. Our highest aspiration is to be like them.” http://tinyurl.com/caffeine08d

        Are the many passages in the Bible that declare that God is our Father just poetic license? All of God’s creations teach me that where there is a father, there is a mother. Mormons do not pretend to know her name, nor do we pray to her. http://tinyurl.com/caffeine08a search: “speaking of prayer”

        Paul chooses to specifically compare our Heavenly Father with our earthly fathers: “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” (Hebrews 12:9)
        http://tinyurl.com/caffeine09

        Jesus acknowledged our Heavenly Father as the father of his spirit: “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.” (Luke 23:46) http://tinyurl.com/caffeine10

        But of course, say the wise doctors, it is heretical to take the Bible literally. The Bible can only be properly understood with a degree in theology. And what is their higher form of thought? To assert that Jesus is his own Father!

        >You did not tell us that he has a body, which the Bible denies and Mormons affirm.

        Oh, but our missionaries make this teaching most clear in their earliest contacts with investigators! And the Bible most definitely affirms that the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone. Sadly, the councils of post-Biblical Christianity were so eager to make Christianity conform to Greek philosophy that they commanded God to get rid of his body.

        Plain reading of the scripture teaches that both the Father and the Son highly esteem their ability to touch and embrace their children. On the morning of his resurrection Jesus told Mary, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” (John 20:17) http://tinyurl.com/caffeine11a

        Fancy that! Jesus told Mary that her Father was his Father, and that her God was his God, and that he was on his way to meet him. We are indeed of his species! For more on God’s ability to touch, see Psalm 144:5 http://tinyurl.com/caffeine12 and Jeremiah 1:9 http://tinyurl.com/caffeine13.

        The Bible is true! God has two hands, and Jesus stands at his right hand. This is how God and Jesus appeared to the first Christian martyr, Stephen, who saw “the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56) http://tinyurl.com/caffeine14. And that is exactly how God and Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith! http://tinyurl.com/caffeine15

        As cited above, the resurrected Lord at first told Mary not to touch him, for he had not yet ascended to his Father. But that same evening, he told his disciples, “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. . . . And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat. And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.” (Luke 24:36-43) http://tinyurl.com/caffeine16

        Morning: “Touch me not: I go to my Father.” Evening: “touch me!” Obviously, between morning and evening, Jesus had reported back to his Father. Was he so ashamed of his physical body, won at such enormous cost, that he hid it under a rock before ascending to his Father? Heaven forbid! Christ had reserved his first physical embrace for his Father, and that embrace was between two glorious beings, each having eternal physical bodies of flesh and bone!

        Christ continued with his apostles for forty days (Acts 1:3). Did they spend all that time fishing? Why don’t we have a record of those teachings? Clearly Christ gave his apostles pearls too precious to cast before swine. (Matthew 7:6). When the apostles died, that knowledge was lost. The Bible cannot possibly contain all that God wants the faithful know, because there are many sacred things are not published, but taught to the faithful alone by prophets and apostles. http://tinyurl.com/caffeine08 search: “temple”

        Paul knew a man who was caught up to the third heaven and heard “unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” (2 Corintians 12:2-4) http://tinyurl.com/caffeine16d There are indeed truths which the Bible must not lawfully record.

        “You did not tell us that according to the LDS, God is of the same essence as us,”

        Patience please, we’ll get to it soon enough. It’s no secret, and it is true. God endearingly refers to himself again and again as our Father. A plain reading of all those passages provides the simple truth: We are the offspring of God, which makes us of his species. As Paul wrote, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:16-17) http://tinyurl.com/caffeine16e

        ” . . . and only became God later by obeying some other god, which again the Bible never mentions.”

        The assumption that if something is not in the Bible, then it can’t be true, is a logical fallacy: the “argument from ignorance.” The Bible is true, but it does and cannot possibly contain all truth. Nor does it anywhere claim such. http://tinyurl.com/caffeine08 search: “Bible”

        (Part 3 of 3 will follow)

      2. “is no more specific than the Bible on this subject”

        That is where you are wrong. The Bible is clear. There is only one God. God has no father (or mother or grandmother or …). Mormons are making it up in order to justify the Biblically errant notion that God has sexual relations in heaven and that Mormons will too. Very simliar to Islamic thought, though.

        “it is heretical to take the Bible literally”
        That is a red herring. No Christian makes such an assertion. So, when the Bible says that there is only One God, do you take that literally, as I do? When the Bible says that God has wings like a mother hen, do you take that literally?

        The Bible is true, but it does and cannot possibly contain all truth

        To claim that the Bible does not claim there is only One God is to be ignorant of, or deceptive about vast portions of Scripture.

        I Kings 8:60: That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

        John 17:3: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

        I Corinthians 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
        5. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
        6. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

        I Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

        James 2:19a Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well…”

      3. (Part 3 of 3)

        >Why do Mormons now claim to be just plain ‘ole Christians, when for 150 years they told us that Joseph Smith got the vision every one of the rest of us were apostates and that no church preached the gospel anymore?

        You misrepresent the words of Christ to Joseph Smith. Please read them more carefully. http://tinyurl.com/caffeine08b “Those professors” who were trying to influence Joseph Smith were probably less than a half-dozen preachers. Who knows what creeds they were proclaiming? But if Christ was referring to the Nicene creed and those that followed as abominations, so be it, for they turn a living sentient being into an unimaginable and incomprehensible blob of immaterial pseudo-plasm.

        Please don’t take offense if God disowns a creed that you had no part in making. “We affirm that this divine declaration was a condemnation of the creeds, not of the faithful seekers who believed in them.” http://tinyurl.com/caffeine16c

        Mormonism claims all truth – even all that you believe that is true. Joseph Smith said, “Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true ‘Mormons’.” (History of the Church 5:517)
        http://tinyurl.com/caffeine16a

        Mormons believe, in fact, that you are saved. But the Lord has more in mind for you. In the words of the late Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley, “We, in effect, simply say to others, ‘Bring all the good that you have and let us see if we can add to it'” http://tinyurl.com/caffeine16b

        You have accused me and all Mormons of trying “fundamentally to . . . deceive people.” I answer that we are truly sincere in inviting all to come unto Christ. But I do not pretend to know your mind, and I shall never call you a liar. Let us leave all such judgment to God and desperately hope that he is as good as his word. (Matthew 7:1-5 http://tinyurl.com/caffeine17, compare 3 Nephi 14:1-5 http://tinyurl.com/caffeine18

        So yes, we do pretend to be that old time religion, the same which Jesus Christ and his apostles taught during the first century, which has long been lost. We have never pretended anything else. For an excellent treatment of this theme I recommend the entire discourse, “Apostasy and Restoration,” by a living apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, Elder Dallin H. Oaks.
        http://tinyurl.com/caffeine08d

        (end of Part 3 of 3. Thank you for your patient consideration.)

        Tracy Hall Jr
        hthalljr’gmail’com

      4. Yes, you are simply pretending. You reject the Bible as full of errors and claim superiority for your book of lies. Then you claim ongoing authority to change your doctrines on a whim.

        I don’t need Joseph Smith to gain all the promises available in Christ alone. I don’t need a book of lies to meet Him who is the Truth. God saves by Grace alone, and not by Grace plus works as Mormons and many others teach.

  2. This is a long post, but your questions merit a complete reply. I’ve broken it into three parts.

    (Part 1 of 3)

    >Anybody who has read the Book of Mormon knows that many portions have been either copied word-for-word from the King James Version of the Bible . . .

    All true scripture quotes from and affirms other scripture, and usually in the version in current use. Even the angel Gabriel quoted scripture in its currently-received embodiment. http://tinyurl.com/caffeine01 (text search: “Actually the Bible passages,” “Protestant scholar’s modern translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls,” and “Conclusion.”

    There are, in fact, important differences in some of the King James quotations. For instance, in the version of the Sermon on the Mount that Christ delivered to the Nephites, Christ makes clear that now that his sacrifice has been completed, the Law of Moses had been fulfilled. The Nephites were commanded to no longer to practice its rites and ordinances. (Paul had a devil of a time getting Jewish converts to do the same).http://tinyurl.com/caffeine03 http://tinyurl.com/caffeine04 http://tinyurl.com/caffeine05 Compare, for example, Matthew 5:23 with 3 Nephi 12:23 with
    http://tinyurl.com/caffeine06 http://tinyurl.com/caffeine07

    > . . . or borrowed from the vernacular of the Middle English.

    See http://tinyurl.com/caffeine02 text search: “with the recent findings”

    >As per usual, as a Mormon, you fundamentally try to deceive people by portraying your doctrine as the same as orthodox Christianity.

    Orthodox? Never! And please, instead of pretending that I’m not a Christian, stoop to allow my self-definition as a non-orthodox Christian. We are definitely non-orthodox Christians, and our doctrines and practices are far closer to the those of first-century Christianity than are the post-biblical, un-biblical “orthodox” creeds formulated by the political councils of the state church of Rome.
    http://tinyurl.com/caffeine08 search: “define Christianity”

    Those passages that I quoted that seem to appear “orthodox” to you were published in1830. There are thousands more that support a plain, no-nonsense reading of the Bible and testify of the truth of the Bible, so much so that one Baptist minister fully embraces the Book of Mormon. He quotes numerous verses about Protestant themes such as covenants, the born again experience, plan of salvation, plan of redemption, salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, faith, and grace. Shall I burn them all? http://tinyurl.com/caffeine02b

    (Part 2 of 3 will follow)

    1. Tracy,

      Thank you for the continued dialogue. I will address many of the issues you have raised, but unless the Spirit of God opens your eyes, you will continue on in your unbelief. There are a few foundational problems with your approach which fuel the errors to which you subscribe.

      The reason the church rejects the book of Mormon is rather simple. God promised to preserve both His Church and His Word. Both were established with Christ as head and the writings of the Apostles as the foundation. The Scripure itself testifies of the authority of the Twelve Apostles (and no other) in so many places:

      {Acts 1:22} Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same
      day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to
      be a witness with us of his resurrection. {1:23} And they
      appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed
      Justus, and Matthias. {1:24} And they prayed, and said,
      Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men,] shew
      whether of these two thou hast chosen, {1:25} That he may
      take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas
      by transgression fell…

      {II Corinthians 11:13} For such [are] false apostles,
      deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles
      of Christ. {11:14} And no marvel; for Satan himself is
      transformed into an angel of light. {11:15} Therefore [it is]
      no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the
      ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to
      their works.

      {Ephesians 2:19} Now therefore ye are no more strangers and
      foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the
      household of God; {2:20} And are built upon the
      foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
      himself being the chief corner [stone; ]{2:21} In whom all
      the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy
      temple in the Lord: {2:22} In whom ye also are builded
      together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

      When those 12 called men died, the authority to write New Scripture ceased. This was an objective standard accepted universally by the early Church and believed until this day.

      The alternative leaves the Churh in the hands of fancy and whims. First, it was not preserved for 1400+ years. Second, any Tom, Mohammed or Joseph could come along and claim to be an apostle and the only standard by which the church could use would be the subjective – the hot feelings of the bosom, which could have come from bad pizza or standing out in the sun too long. This is so because, Joseph Smith and his followers, for example, rejected the Bible as not being translated properly or needing the interpretation of modern “prophets and apostles”. That is why Mormons must always resort to either their own books or the strange interpretations of their own leaders to justify the doctrines which are contrary to the Scriptures, which is why you do the same.

      Thank you for the civil discourse. I consider these matters very seriously, as there is no second chance for either of us beyond this life to believe in Jesus, the Divine and only Eternal Son of God.

  3. Too bad someone deleted all the comments on this. It was an good discussion going on that I was hoping to continue to follow.

    1. My bad, they aren’t deleted but when I switched over to Disqus the old comments wouldn’t import since we changed our permalink structure. I should have switched to Disqus before doing that. Sorry!

    2. My bad, they aren’t deleted but when I switched over to Disqus the old comments wouldn’t import since we changed our permalink structure. I should have switched to Disqus before doing that. Sorry!

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