Establishment, Not Ron Paul Supporters at Fault in St. Charles, MO Caucus Brouhaha

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missouri3-620x362I stand corrected.  When I make a mistake or have the facts wrong even when I’m just writing my opinion and not a hard news story I want to correct the record.  I jumped the gun on the St. Charles, MO caucus shut-down story.  I am sorry.  I know there were a number of people linking video, but honestly, when you get spammed by Paulbots you tune them out.

Sorry guys, but your methods are ineffective.  Coming over here and calling me names won’t convince me to listen to you.  However a regular reader of Caffeinated Thoughts who supports Ron Paul,  whom I also have known for years (I was his youth pastor), shared the video below.  So thanks Josh for setting me straight.

In it we clearly see a couple of things.

  1. The temporary chair tried to appoint a permanent chair.  Definitely against the rules, as with the caucus experience I’ve had people are nominated and the group votes.  That wasn’t the case here.
  2. Missouri GOP rules states their needs to be a vote to adjourn, the chair can’t decide to do that.

Anyway, I stand behind my disagreement with Paul’s strategy, but in this instance it was the establishment, not Ron Paul supporters, who were wrong.  Even if you don’t agree with Paul’s strategy it doesn’t give you the right to go in and change the rules to suit you.

Did some Ron Paul supporters act inappropriately?  I’m sure there were some who didn’t handle it the best, but the simple fact is this they were responding to inappropriate action by the caucus chair.

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  • Ddkrutsinger

    A few things: One, Props on reassessing your opinion when presenting the new data and doing so publicly.  Second, we only know the ‘truth’ because some people broke the ‘rules’ set by the chair and continued recording as much as they could.  This resulted in some people being unlawfully arrested.  And finally, I am sure some Paul supporters acting poorly, but look at how many acted.  Some knew the rules very well, started to determine if a quarum existed, appoined a new chair and began going about the business of conducting a causus.  That is impressive in my opinion.  And what happens to the chair of the new, legal, and legitimate chair, he gets arrested.  Just think, if people followed the ‘rules’ and didn’t record the events, the party establishment story would be taken as the truth, just like it was initially. 

    • Ddkrutsinger

      Wow, I typed that way to quickly, please forgive all the grammer and spelling errors…I’m really not that much of an idiot.

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        Dustin, you’re a Med student… I don’t think they allow idiots in there :)

    • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

      I agree with you there was misconduct in Missouri, now I realize that you’re not officially with the campaign, but…

      I’m still waiting for Ron Paul folks to apologize for the documented misconduct that took place at the Polk County Republican Convention in Des Moines, IA.  Unless you think trying to sneak people onto the convention floor to fill empty seats when they weren’t elected delegates or alternates is ok.

      Which if that’s the case you don’t have any business complaining about what went down in St. Charles.

  • Jcpenicks

    Keep watching Ben Swann, you’ll become a RP supporter one day too! Doctor Paul cured me of my apathy!

    • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

      I doubt it.  I’m not apathetic, I just disagree with him.  I think it’s pretty presumptuous to assume people who don’t support him are apathetic. 

      • Dager

        The apathy comment means that RP just made him take more of an active role in the political process. Many RP supporters are first time participators and got interested in how the process works and the issues that mean alot to them. Same thing happened with Kelly Clarkson. RP was a breath of fresh air against a backdrop of stagnant glad-handing all the other candidates seem to guilty of. It wasn’t a slant at you.

      • Kympa

        What do you disagree with Paul? May be I can help.

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        I appreciate the offer, but I’ve thoroughly vetted him in person in Iowa.

  • mrfeelgood

    A “real” journalist will investigate the facts before writing a article. Obviously your degree from the WalMart School of Journalism did not teach that course. Though your retractment should not go unnoticed, jumping the gun to write a article with clear bias toward a person you have prejudice with is no excuse.

    • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

      I don’t have a degree in journalism, and I’m not a professional journalist.  I am a blogger who does this for a hobby and don’t worship at the feet of one particular candidate like you.  I don’t spend my hours spamming articles that are disparaging toward Santorum (my candidate of choice) because unlike you I have a life.  I also realize that if I did happen to read a post that was inaccurate that insulting the author of the said post would get me absolutely nowhere.

      Also at least I have the guts to not hide behind anonymity when I write a comment, write an article, etc.  It is a great tool to hold me accountable and to help keep my comments in check.  You should try it sometime.  Had all of the information been available to me at the time I wrote the post on the brief amount of time I had on Saturday afternoon (again I’m not a full-time journalist) I would not have posted it as I did.  And while you accuse me of bias – yes I am not a fan of Ron Paul – I am also a fair person and I don’t like the disregard of the rules regardless of the candidate.  Perhaps you didn’t let this post sink in enough.

      Anyway, integrity says I needed to eat humble pie and admit my error.  I can’t imagine you’re getting a lot of retractions so I find it fascinating you’d come by and insult me.  Especially in light of what I said about the ineffectiveness of such a tactic.  You and people like you are Ron Paul’s Achilles heel.  With such a lack of maturity in his supporters it is incredibly hard to take the candidate himself seriously.  You may not feel that is fair, but the fact is you reflect upon your candidate. 

      Speaking of bias, I’m still waiting for Ron Paul folks to apologize for the documented misconduct that took place at the Polk County Republican Convention in Des Moines, IA.  Unless you think trying to sneak people onto the convention floor to fill empty seats when they weren’t elected delegates or alternates is ok.  If you think it is you’re a hypocrite and have zero business criticizing what happened in St. Charles.

      • christopher mathews

        How can people who call themselves conservatives support these folks like santorum.He will never get my support,As a veteran I consider it my duty to be informed and vote for the best canidate for commander in chief.As it stands I will vote and support the only veteran who is running.I have never and will never respect thoose who send others off to fight their wars without going themselves.Big spening ,Big goverment warhawks are ruining the republican brand and its a damned shame too!

      • sameolbs

        Santorum is a big government Republican (see above Santorum quote)

        Is the Republican party now the party of big government? This is new to me.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jason-Cline/100001266222432 Jason Cline

        I believe you understand that not all Ron Paul supporters are childish. I for one support him because I   feel he is an ethical politician who won’t bend the rules to accomplish his goals. This is also why you now have my respect despite our vast disagreement over Mr. Santorum. Thank you for taking the time to write this retraction.

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        Of course I understand that.  I have a lot of friends who support Ron Paul.  My main issue is with the online conduct of a lot of Ron Paul supporters whom I label Paulbots.  I don’t equate all Ron Paul supporters to be Paulbots though.

      • volatile chemicals

        Well, name calling is a sure way to bridge the divide….

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        Ha! Really? Would you like to know what I’ve been called? Seriously go read some of the comments on a couple of thed recent Paul posts and then go police your own.

      • volatile chemicals

        You did not like it when others called you names, so in the zero sum world of egotism you thought you could recover ground by name calling? What kind of units do you use to measure that kind of activity?

        I understand in this case you would be justified because “they started it first”. Yes, that gives you free reign to generalize, call Paul supporters names, and misreport the facts.

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        Ahem, this post was a correction. Egotistical, yeah that is how people who know me would describe me, oh brother. I’m done with this thread.

      • http://RonPaulPromise.com Louis Nardozi

         I’m looking around, and I don’t see any ‘documented’ misbehavior. What I DID see was the opinion of one person who said rule changes are not allowed, when Robert’s Rules of Order clearly states they ARE allowed. Why was a vote not taken, and the rule change defeated in the normal way? There was an implication RP supporters were rifling through papers – but in the same sentence the person acknowledged he didn’t KNOW they were RP supporters and admitted they could have been Occupiers. Whatever happened to the rule of law? Whatever happened to evidence?

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        If you’d read my comment instead reading into it you would have noticed I was talking about Des Moines, IA not St. Charles.

      • http://RonPaulPromise.com Louis Nardozi

        I clearly remember you said “documented”. Did you mean that you have EVIDENCE, or is this just an assertion? If you have EVIDENCE, rock the world and show it!

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        Go to theiowarepublican.com

      • http://RonPaulPromise.com Louis Nardozi

        And… remember we’re talking about EVIDENCE, not supposition or some guy’s opinion. That being said, a link to an actual ARTICLE would be much more helpful to your cause than just a website. What, I’m supposed to read the whole thing and arbitrarily decide in your favor based on my unwillingness to read 10,000 pages of drivel?

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        It isn’t a guy’s opinion.  He reported what went on.  There was misconduct by the Paul campaign trying to sneak people onto the delegate floor in Polk County.  That isn’t an opinion.  That is fact.

      • http://RonPaulPromise.com Louis Nardozi

        Again, I see you couldn’t be bothered to include a link. Perhaps it is because no such link exists? Was there corroboration? Were the people positively identified as Paul supporters, or was it his OPINION they were Paul supporters? Such serious misbehavior surely resulted in their being ejected. Any record of that? Any pictures? Eye witnesses? Of just one guy saying some stuff that might have happened – or that might have been invented by that person to support their candidate. If you want to talk EVIDENCE, there are a huge number of DOCUMENTED cases of vote fraud against Paul but not one DOCUMENTED case of Paul supporters doing the same.

      • sameolbs

        “This whole idea of personal autonomy, well I don’t think most conservatives hold that point of view. Some do. They have this idea that people should be left alone, be able to do whatever they want to do, government should keep our taxes down and keep our regulations low, keep our regulations low, that we shouldn’t get involved in the bedroom, we shouldn’t get involved in cultural issues.
        That is not how traditional conservatives view the world. There is no such society that I’m aware of, where we’ve had radical individualism and that it succeeds as a culture.” – Rick Santorum

        If I want big government I’ll vote Democrat.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1307592351 Jacqueline McMahon

    Alright… I wrote a comment on your first article and later found this one. Thank you for admitting your mistake.

    The problem is that so many people just immediately jump to the conclusion that it’s the Ron Paul supporters fault. That’s a huge problem in the media right now. That’s why people get so outraged, because Ron Paul supporters are immediately viewed in a negative light when as you can see- there’s proof we just want things done the correct way. If our candidate gets beat FAIRLY then so be it… but that’s not what is happening right now and why you see such outrage from us.

    I really don’t care who you vote for or what your personal opinion is of Dr Paul, but please just get the facts first before blaming “the Usual Suspects.” I firmly believe that the majority of us want this to be completely and totally fair and that’s all we’re asking. As with any group you will have a few a-holes and ignorant people, but as you have recently seen- we’re not all that bad. Nothing is wrong with asking the rules to be followed and voicing your dissent when they are not.

    Again I appreciate you setting the record straight. I hope this helps you realize the importance of research first before you publish your articles. 

    I apologize for any Ron Paul supporters who may inappropriately attack you- and ask that you keep in mind not all of us are that way. 

    • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

      Thank you Jacqueline.  I appreciate your apology.  I know that most of you are not that way.  It just seems that most I’ve dealt with online are.  Fortunately the supporters I know offline are respectful, kind and great Americans (even if I disagree on which candidate to support).

  • Marksst

    I frankly do not understand why any professing Christian would not support Ron Paul. His positions most obviously align with the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace.

    • Nickrg

      Peace, tolerance, honesty, fairness, principles…
      or
      war, intolerance, saying anything to get elected, going along to get along, disrespectful rhetoric…

      Keeping working to discuss with people the virtues of Ron Paul. He’s not perfect, but he’s nowhere near the man the MSM makes him out to be.

  • Mygravelroads

    That’s great Shane but why didn’t you check the facts on your own? You have a habit of doing this

    • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

      Because maybe I have other things to do like take care of my son who has cancer.  This blog is a HOBBY, not a job.

      And this is only the 2nd time I’ve felt like I’ve needed to write a retraction.  Just because Paul supporters have disagreed with me in the past doesn’t equal me having my facts wrong.

      I remember posting a presser from the Paul campaign about his support of DOMA and a bunch of Paul supporters jumped on here howling that I had it wrong.  The only problem with that was it was straight from Jesse Benton.

      You guys are also famous for knee jerk reactions so please don’t lecture me.

      • Testschool 14446

        Stating the obvious is not a “lecture”. You should’ve checked the facts first on your own. The end.

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        I went with what was reported at the time.  The end.

  • Dougwead

    Thanks Shane

    • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

      You are welcome.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jason-Cline/100001266222432 Jason Cline

    I’d also like to say that although it may be hard to take Paul supporters seriously because of the collective nature of his younger support base; there exists a very real bias against youth taking an active role in politics. I’m a small business owner who deals in volumes of precious metals and despite the fact that I dress and act professionally, my youth, and more specifically the fact that I look younger than I am to boot, led me to encounter a tremendous amount of mockery, contempt, and a general lack of respect and credibility that I rightly deserved while conducting business. I get the sense that this is a prevailing factor hampering the Ron Paul base. The state GOP leaders feel threatened on a level that goes beyond the candidates and it’s very disturbing. 

    • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

      Being young is one thing, being immature is a completely different matter. Frankly Paulbots act incredibly immature.

      Also there may be a bias, I’ll agree with you on that… it’s this – go experience life and then tell us how it is. Frankly some (not all) of your generations views are steeped in naivete because you don’t have adequate life experience. You may have some knowledge, but you (general you, not you specifically) lack wisdom.

      Now I fully admit there are unwise older Americans too.

      Anyway, I understand this because I was like that when I was in college and a young adult. My perspective has changed considerably. I think that is something that you also need to realize this and then have an appropriate amount of humility. If younger Ron Paul supporters exercised humility and recognize that they do lack life experience they would probably find they’d have a better reception.

      But I can just see now somebody will come over and say to me, “F___ you Shane, Ron Paul, 2012!” and thus proving my point.

      • sameolbs

        Shane…so you are the wise one and you know better than anyone else? It is obvious by your comment that you have no respect for the youth of America. I voted for McCain in 2008 and will not vote for another neoconservative candidate again. Continuous, pre-emptive wars and nation building are breaking this country. BTW, I am not young so stop making assumptions about age.

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        I didn’t say that, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

        And since I work with kids for a living yes I do, but I also know they lack wisdom and experience. That’s just a fact of life.

        Ok, based on your comment I thought you were. How old are you? I apologize for my error.

        By the way I have a lot of friends who are Ron Paul supporters, I don’t lump them in with Paulbots.

      • sameolbs

        Is it Pauls foreign policy you do not like or is it his small government views?

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        Foreign policy

      • Kympa

        Is it his cautious stand on Iran or stopping the foreign aid to Israel? 

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        By the way sameolbs, cute handle by the way, I addressed the youth comment to the gentleman who brought it up which was not you, so why did you assume I was talking to you?

      • Sterling Bushnell

        so will you admit that it has been the unwise adults that have been in power now for decades and their faults are more egregious in deed and consequences.

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        I would agree there have been unwise adults who have been in power.

        That doesn’t mean youth are full of wisdom and experience.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NC2KTHI5IRCCE6MNME7KVTTEBA yonish

        stop the name calling pastor. really, if you want anyone to read your posts.

      • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

        yonish.. first I’m not a pastor anymore.  But seriously how about telling your people to stop calling me a dumbsh*t or telling me to f__ off.  I think we can agree that is much worse than being called a Paulbot.  I use the word Paulbot to describe a specific behavior.  Not all Ron Paul supporters are Paulbots, but people who spam blogs they normally don’t read in order to trash a guy who disagrees with him or reported negatively on him is.

  • Nickrg

    Hi Shane, I really appreciate your correction. Out of the hundereds of factually false articles I’ve read over the ~6 months, you are the only author I’ve noticed that did this.

    I’d agree that many Ron Paul supporters can be abrasive, and have bent/broken rules. But I’d like to point out that Ron Paul is clearly running against the will of: those that run the GOP, the military industrial complex, Federal Reserve Bank (Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, J.P. Morgan Chase, ect), the mainstream media, the Iraeli lobby, basically some of the most powerful institutions in this country don’t want Paul as the next president because he wants to stop the funneling of our tax dollars to them (by ending wars, debt, foreign spending, lobbying). That is a very unfair playing field compared to the other candidates. Their are many cases of documented fraud against his voters, the MSM blatantly misrepresent his views and constantly tell the world he’s unelectable and irrelevant, and on and on and on. I just wanted to provide some context for the interests that are working very hard against his campaign, and why his supports feel very slighted by the ‘establishment’.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=756784272 Rework Oh Ryan

    “I know there were a number of people linking video, but honestly, when you get spammed by Paulbots you tune them out.”

    No wonder you didn’t know.  Perhaps you should stop typing and actually listen once in a while.

    “I never learned a thing while I was talking” – Larry King

  • Kympa

    You are a big man, Shane for admitting your haste. It is good to know that you are not just naturally biased. But you know, much of what Ben Swann says had been said many times over in the comments. 

    • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

      And like I said after the comments tell me to F__ off and the like I tuned it out. And I wanted it in a media source because you guys are just as biased as I am.

  • STC, MO-Paulbot

    Shane,
    I do appreciate your halfhearted apology.
    It is rare for bloggers or media to retract statements or admit that they were incorrect, especially concerning Ron Paul.
    You will receive harsh reactions from those that deal with deception, cover-up and outright neglect of any “news” coverage the candidate one feels so passionate about.
    I don’t expect for someone that blogs in their spare time to have a vast amount of credibility, let alone alone dig through piles of documentation to shed light on a candidate that he/she doesn’t support.
    I would never have made it to this site if not for the retraction or your story, so please consider that in the future.
    This type of “hijacking” as the establishment has labeled it, has gone on in several states around the country and should be further documented by “conservative” outlets, rather than dismissed.
    This year the corruption and fraud concerns my candidate, but next election it may be yours.
    This level of fraud affects us all at some point.
    Have you blogged about why Santorum is your candidate, or why Ron Paul is not?
    Just curious.
    Thank you for leaving comments open.

    • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

      Wow, do you know me?  Why would you say it is half-hearted?  I got it wrong.  I checked out some of the videos and realized I had the facts wrong and admitted it.  What is half-hearted about that?

      I have blogged about why Santorum is my candidate.  Again, your comment illustrates my point about a lot of Ron Paul supporters.  You only read and comment on posts that are about Ron Paul.  If you were a regular reader here you would know why.  Also, you would know there have been times I’ve written positively about Ron Paul.  I’ve run his pressers.  I’ve offered to interview him.  I have one of his supporters (Dustin Krutsinger) as a contributor.

  • http://shanevanderhart.com/ Shane Vander Hart

    Ok, this is my last comment.  I’ve responded more in this post than I normally do.  This thread will be open for a few more days (my posts comments close automatically after 21 days), but you will not get a personal response from me.  If you decide to jump on and flame me though I’ll remove your comment and block you as spam.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1243075077 Harper McGowen

    Great report….good that you got the facts straight….what now for St Charles Mo delegate?

  • Userlevel Six

    Shane,
    Paulbots become Paulbots when they are treated badly.  Most Paul supporters start out perfectly normal, but when the knives come out and the childishness starts, we fight fire with fire.  Is that not the reality of American politics going waaaay back?  Our candidate has been near-constantly denigrated, called names like “kook” and “Anti-American” for trying to revive the Republican party we believed in before GHWB and Karl Rove.  We don’t see what has has happened since Reagan left office as going in the right direction.  We don’t want a “New World Order” under the UN, WTO and international courts.  So, since we must fight through a cloud of propaganda, and outwardly hostile propagandists that believe their own lies, of course we’re going to be brash and outspoken.  The reality of today is if you don’t make enough noise to get people’s minds out of their entertainment systems, you’re going nowhere from the start.
    That said, there is no call for telling people to “f-off.”  There is no place in political discussion for such a lack of respect for another’s opinion.

  • ThatLibertyGuy

    Apology accepted.  Just a tip Shane.  I have found that apologies come across as more genuine when I do not try to embellish them.  It is very difficult to do, but the result is much sweeter when you just serve it up raw with a dash of humility.